The slow smooth floating of the suspensor guys, Sardaukar "paratroopers" in the first movie, and so on is so cool and so visually distinctive. Offhand I can't think of any objects or people in other scifi movies that move in quite the same way.
another great recap. Love these... and for someone who read the book a decade ago supremely helpful reminders. Sidenote... googled cuñado and wiktionary also says it can mean "know it all" or "blowhard" which tracks on some level.
The film felt like a tragedy to me. Watching stilgar and gurney charge off at the to slaughter a bunch more people you realize you aren't supposed to have remotely uncomplicated feelings about these people.
No strong feelings on Walken's performance in the end but I assume the casting note for Shaddam was "distinguished, tired old actor you haven't seen in a while" which I think is fun, correct stunt casting if you can't get Dali (hard)
ETA: Thank you everyone for your responses. To answer your questions, YES my MIL took the Water of Life while she was pregnant !!! This has caused a LOT of tension because now my SIL is fully conscious in the womb and they are talking all the time. I have moved out of my Sietch and am going to take a long worm ride to think about this situation. I really appreciate all of the love and upvotes.
Movie left a bad taste for me. I feel like making Chani into an entirely different character doesn't work if you're gonna user her to tell the same story, because then all her actions seem weirdly out of character. Also, her stance of resisting the Fremen's best shot at material liberation out of a principled commitment atheism isn't a very compelling sell.
Well, she learns that lesson about her stance the the hard way, doesn't she...
I'm not sure I thought her actions were out of character, per se--if anything I found the romance *more* realistic to the extent that Chani was one of a few people in the Sietch who really saw Paul as/for the fully human person he begins the story as. It's a little shallow and Hollywood, maybe, but I also wouldn't trust Villeneuve to communicate the book-Chani in a way that didn't make her feel like a submissive religious wife. (And I think you'd need a different actress anyway, it's hard to imagine Zendaya pulling off the original version of the character.)
Yeah. I empathize with the reasons behind the change, and I don't think it is an easy change to make, but it just didn't work for me. I'm not even sure I could have predicted on paper that it wasn't going to work, without seeing it unfold on screen.
The whole skeptics vs believers Fremen divide also bothered me, because I feel you cannot make this change without having it ripple unto other things, at least if, as presented here, there's a significant contingent of Fedaykin who openly disavow the whole religious undertones.
Finally, Chani and Paul's relationship just didn't feel that significant, which then makes the overbearing foreshadowing of Chani in part-I feel like it doesn't pay off. I think maybe the Golden Path here would be to start out with book-Chani and have her grow into movie-Chani through her closeness to Paul and the main plot.
Also, I wish the movie took as many pains explaining that it isn't jealousy of Irulan that prompts Chani's seeming disavowal of Paul, as the book does explaining she is totally fine with being a concubine. My read was that, despite Chani's whole anti-prophecy stance, the last straw is when Paul takes Irulan's hand, which seems petty considering everything else at stake. My wife pointed out that it really is the unleashing of the Jihad that drives her away, which makes much more sense with movie-Chani's whole personality.
One thing we do agree on, is that Life-Of-Brian-Stilgar is too high a price to pay for some comic relief, however much needed. (And the Fremen lasers do seem to thrown a wrench in the necessity of up close commando style raids, but here I'm just splitting hairs)
By trying to make Chani a "strong and independent character" they ended up portraying her as weak, and wrecked the metaphor of the silent, listening concubine as embodying the erotic call of the desert. But audiences ate it up, so whatever.
Re the old-fashioned artillery bit, I saw someone speculate it was a reference to a thing that happens in the books. When the Harkonnens sneak-attack the Atreides, they use artillery to blast out some troops that had retreated to the caves. I don't remember why artillery is old-fashioned in this universe and it still doesn't explain how Feyd-Rautha knew where the Fremen were in the first place. That scene and the jump from Paul not wanting to go south, saying he'll go south with Chani, beating her there(??) and then immediately taking the Water of Life(?????) did not make sense to me.
I go back and forth on the Leto omission--I understand not wanting to introduce a child who you're just going to kill, and the accelerated timeline of the movie makes it even harder. But on the other hand, on a schematic script level it might make Paul's decision to take the Water of Life a bit more sensible.
Re: the "beating her south" thing, in the scene where they're all riding the worms side by side I think we're supposed to understand it as ending with Paul peeling off to go to the "temple" while Chani and the rest of Sietch Tabr head to the war council. When Paul falls into a coma, Chani takes a thopter from the council to see him. (I didn't quite realize this was the sequence events until the second viewing, which suggests that whole bit could've used some visual as well as emotional clarity...)
Ah yes, I completely missed that sequence (only watched it once).
The exclusion of Leto II and the way things were left with Chani really makes me wonder if they want to fold elements of Children of Dune/God Emperor into the next film and completely skip the twins and instead have Paul take on the God Emperor role (minus turning into a big worm).
The Arrakis scenes in the second half blended into each other a bit for me, but I wasn't sure if that was because I saw a midnight showing right after Part 1. Still, I feel like the war plotline might have benefited from a bit more differentiation in the scenery and tactics (yes I know the movie is called DUNE, but there must be some other bits of desert...)
Artillery (ie, lobbing projectiles) is largely useless in a universe with shield technology - but because the artillery is used to blast cave entrances shut and trap the people inside it's a novel idea? (That's in the book against the Atreides, no real sense to it in the film...)
Yes, I think this is right--here's the section of the book:
"The guns nibbled at the caves where the Duke’s fighting men had retreated for a last-ditch stand. Slowly measured bites of orange glare, showers of rock and dust in the brief illumination—and the Duke’s men were being sealed off to die by starvation, caught like animals in their burrows. The Baron could feel the distant chomping—a drumbeat carried to him through the ship’s metal: broomp…broomp. Then: BROOMP-broomp! Who would think of reviving artillery in this day of shields? The thought was a chuckle in his mind. But it was predictable the Duke’s men would run for those caves. And the Emperor will appreciate my cleverness in preserving the lives of our mutual force."
And later, the Fremen asking Thufir Hawat about it:
"'Perhaps.' The Fremen rubbed at the scar beside his nose. 'Tell me, Thufir Hawat, do you have knowledge of the big weapons the Harkonnens used?' The artillery, Hawat thought bitterly. Who could have guessed they’d use artillery in this day of shields? 'You refer to the artillery they used to trap our people in the caves,' he said. 'I’ve…theoretical knowledge of such explosive weapons.' 'Any man who retreats into a cave which has only one opening deserves to die,' the Fremen said."
But like you say, it doesn't seem to make much sense in the movie unless you don't think about it very hard.
"“I see strength in you… like the base of the pillar.” “The base” is a cool name, wonder if anyone else has used it? "
SIR! I'm laughing so hard.
yes... ha ha ha... yes!
The slow smooth floating of the suspensor guys, Sardaukar "paratroopers" in the first movie, and so on is so cool and so visually distinctive. Offhand I can't think of any objects or people in other scifi movies that move in quite the same way.
what I wouldn't give for a Alia movie with Ana instead of a Furiosa movie
i mean... who hasn't gone for a moody solo worm-drive in the desert after a bad break up?
another great recap. Love these... and for someone who read the book a decade ago supremely helpful reminders. Sidenote... googled cuñado and wiktionary also says it can mean "know it all" or "blowhard" which tracks on some level.
+1 to Austin Butler’s accent - I really appreciated his attempt! Thank you for all of this.
The film felt like a tragedy to me. Watching stilgar and gurney charge off at the to slaughter a bunch more people you realize you aren't supposed to have remotely uncomplicated feelings about these people.
you knocked it outta the park... hated having to google LessWrong tho
No strong feelings on Walken's performance in the end but I assume the casting note for Shaddam was "distinguished, tired old actor you haven't seen in a while" which I think is fun, correct stunt casting if you can't get Dali (hard)
Or maybe it was just the Fatboy Slim thing and nothing else.
Suggested edit:
r/AmITheAsshole • AITA for moving out after my (18F) MIL (36F) and SIL (.6F) convinced my boyfriend (18M) he is the messiah?
ETA: Thank you everyone for your responses. To answer your questions, YES my MIL took the Water of Life while she was pregnant !!! This has caused a LOT of tension because now my SIL is fully conscious in the womb and they are talking all the time. I have moved out of my Sietch and am going to take a long worm ride to think about this situation. I really appreciate all of the love and upvotes.
Movie left a bad taste for me. I feel like making Chani into an entirely different character doesn't work if you're gonna user her to tell the same story, because then all her actions seem weirdly out of character. Also, her stance of resisting the Fremen's best shot at material liberation out of a principled commitment atheism isn't a very compelling sell.
Well, she learns that lesson about her stance the the hard way, doesn't she...
I'm not sure I thought her actions were out of character, per se--if anything I found the romance *more* realistic to the extent that Chani was one of a few people in the Sietch who really saw Paul as/for the fully human person he begins the story as. It's a little shallow and Hollywood, maybe, but I also wouldn't trust Villeneuve to communicate the book-Chani in a way that didn't make her feel like a submissive religious wife. (And I think you'd need a different actress anyway, it's hard to imagine Zendaya pulling off the original version of the character.)
Yeah. I empathize with the reasons behind the change, and I don't think it is an easy change to make, but it just didn't work for me. I'm not even sure I could have predicted on paper that it wasn't going to work, without seeing it unfold on screen.
The whole skeptics vs believers Fremen divide also bothered me, because I feel you cannot make this change without having it ripple unto other things, at least if, as presented here, there's a significant contingent of Fedaykin who openly disavow the whole religious undertones.
Finally, Chani and Paul's relationship just didn't feel that significant, which then makes the overbearing foreshadowing of Chani in part-I feel like it doesn't pay off. I think maybe the Golden Path here would be to start out with book-Chani and have her grow into movie-Chani through her closeness to Paul and the main plot.
Also, I wish the movie took as many pains explaining that it isn't jealousy of Irulan that prompts Chani's seeming disavowal of Paul, as the book does explaining she is totally fine with being a concubine. My read was that, despite Chani's whole anti-prophecy stance, the last straw is when Paul takes Irulan's hand, which seems petty considering everything else at stake. My wife pointed out that it really is the unleashing of the Jihad that drives her away, which makes much more sense with movie-Chani's whole personality.
One thing we do agree on, is that Life-Of-Brian-Stilgar is too high a price to pay for some comic relief, however much needed. (And the Fremen lasers do seem to thrown a wrench in the necessity of up close commando style raids, but here I'm just splitting hairs)
By trying to make Chani a "strong and independent character" they ended up portraying her as weak, and wrecked the metaphor of the silent, listening concubine as embodying the erotic call of the desert. But audiences ate it up, so whatever.
Politically weak, maybe, but not personally weak
Personally weak, because entirely at the whim of her own emotions, with no character growth.
Big Jordan Peterson Energy vibrating off this comment.
Re the old-fashioned artillery bit, I saw someone speculate it was a reference to a thing that happens in the books. When the Harkonnens sneak-attack the Atreides, they use artillery to blast out some troops that had retreated to the caves. I don't remember why artillery is old-fashioned in this universe and it still doesn't explain how Feyd-Rautha knew where the Fremen were in the first place. That scene and the jump from Paul not wanting to go south, saying he'll go south with Chani, beating her there(??) and then immediately taking the Water of Life(?????) did not make sense to me.
What did you make of cutting Leto II?
I go back and forth on the Leto omission--I understand not wanting to introduce a child who you're just going to kill, and the accelerated timeline of the movie makes it even harder. But on the other hand, on a schematic script level it might make Paul's decision to take the Water of Life a bit more sensible.
Re: the "beating her south" thing, in the scene where they're all riding the worms side by side I think we're supposed to understand it as ending with Paul peeling off to go to the "temple" while Chani and the rest of Sietch Tabr head to the war council. When Paul falls into a coma, Chani takes a thopter from the council to see him. (I didn't quite realize this was the sequence events until the second viewing, which suggests that whole bit could've used some visual as well as emotional clarity...)
Ah yes, I completely missed that sequence (only watched it once).
The exclusion of Leto II and the way things were left with Chani really makes me wonder if they want to fold elements of Children of Dune/God Emperor into the next film and completely skip the twins and instead have Paul take on the God Emperor role (minus turning into a big worm).
The Arrakis scenes in the second half blended into each other a bit for me, but I wasn't sure if that was because I saw a midnight showing right after Part 1. Still, I feel like the war plotline might have benefited from a bit more differentiation in the scenery and tactics (yes I know the movie is called DUNE, but there must be some other bits of desert...)
Artillery (ie, lobbing projectiles) is largely useless in a universe with shield technology - but because the artillery is used to blast cave entrances shut and trap the people inside it's a novel idea? (That's in the book against the Atreides, no real sense to it in the film...)
Yes, I think this is right--here's the section of the book:
"The guns nibbled at the caves where the Duke’s fighting men had retreated for a last-ditch stand. Slowly measured bites of orange glare, showers of rock and dust in the brief illumination—and the Duke’s men were being sealed off to die by starvation, caught like animals in their burrows. The Baron could feel the distant chomping—a drumbeat carried to him through the ship’s metal: broomp…broomp. Then: BROOMP-broomp! Who would think of reviving artillery in this day of shields? The thought was a chuckle in his mind. But it was predictable the Duke’s men would run for those caves. And the Emperor will appreciate my cleverness in preserving the lives of our mutual force."
And later, the Fremen asking Thufir Hawat about it:
"'Perhaps.' The Fremen rubbed at the scar beside his nose. 'Tell me, Thufir Hawat, do you have knowledge of the big weapons the Harkonnens used?' The artillery, Hawat thought bitterly. Who could have guessed they’d use artillery in this day of shields? 'You refer to the artillery they used to trap our people in the caves,' he said. 'I’ve…theoretical knowledge of such explosive weapons.' 'Any man who retreats into a cave which has only one opening deserves to die,' the Fremen said."
But like you say, it doesn't seem to make much sense in the movie unless you don't think about it very hard.
Is pedantry a bad quality?
Who/how should they have done Alia?
Open casting... find the scariest two-year-old in America, give her a poisoned needle, let her riff